calendar request

Date: Mon Nov 28 14:08 2005

calendar request

Date: Mon Nov 28 15:02 2005

If held late enough in the evening, say after 8 or 9 this would work out well, for me at least.

Date: Mon Nov 28 15:49 2005

Nights are okay with me. I don't have a problem with breaking the C auction down to 2 nights if that is what is needed to get it completed.

I do have a question for Keith though. How is it you are taking vacation and losing money? If you aren't getting paid for your time off, then it isn't vacation.

Date: Mon Nov 28 16:58 2005

gs civilians get paided a premium of 25% for working on sundays. so to take off sun costs me 8 hrs of vacation and 2 hrs of premium pay that I would have earned if I was at work. or roughly $125 of lost pay.

keith

Date: Mon Nov 28 17:43 2005

they would work out great for me...great idea keith

Date: Mon Nov 28 18:00 2005

could we do the rookie draft the same way....saturdays is killer..i would love to make a rookie draft for once...art

Date: Mon Nov 28 18:21 2005

I'm in bed at 9:00, 9:30 at the latest and that's east coast time so week nights will not work for me if we have a late start. Now, if we do it on Fridays I might go wild and stay up until 11:00!

Any day at 3:30am would work great for me. Any takers?

Date: Mon Nov 28 21:38 2005

That sounds good but I work Mon. through Thur. 5pm to 9pm Central time. So if wee break the draft it would need to be late for me to do.

Doug

Date: Wed Nov 30 09:00 2005

Sounds like evenings would work great if we all lived in the same time zone but we do not. SAturdays and Sundays work because the blocks of free time are longer so the 2-hour differences don't matter as much.

What are the prospects of continuing to have the C/FA auction and coming up with some other format for the IOD that isn't real-time, like we do with the waiver draft?

Date: Wed Nov 30 15:52 2005

I'd be ok if it was later in the evening (say 9 pm central) and not on consecutive nights.

Date: Wed Nov 30 23:44 2005

the point kevin is that sat/sun don't work for many of us. they work for you because your off work/school on that day. Art, Warren and I work on those days.

Date: Thu Dec 1 04:15 2005

Keith - you, Art, and Warren don't qualify as "many of us". I believe Kevin's point is that while a few of us are willing to do the evening thing, some of the times we are available don't match up.

Date: Thu Dec 1 09:03 2005

Actually Friday night would be a good night. Dave could push his bedtime back to 11pm. We could start a little earlier say 7pm and have a 4 hour slot to accomplish what we need to.

Bottom line fellas is the chances of finding a day and time convenient to everyone is probably not going to happen. Someone is going to be inconvenienced and not be able to attend. It has always been that way, even in the days of face to face meetings.

I think from a fairness standpoint, rotating year to year the day we do it is the way to go. It isn't fair to inconvenience the same group of people year after year. Or for the same people to not be able to attend year after year. If weekends are bad for a group of our membership, then we should have the off season meetings during the week every other year.

Tom T can pick the week days and times the most number of people can attend and schedule the meetings. Then it is up to each person to make arrangements to be there or have a proxy. Next year we can go back to weekends. But to just say too bad its on weekends miss work or miss the draft isn't a fair way to handle the problem. It could easily be said, what's more important, attending work or getting to bed at a reasonable hour? I would come down on the side of those who would have to miss work to attend, than those who might have to stay up an hour or two later.

Date: Thu Dec 1 09:31 2005

For no other reason but to throw in my two cents, I agree with Tom. I think the only fair way to do this is to alternate from year to year.

Date: Thu Dec 1 10:26 2005

I will, of course, bow to the will of the league on this, and it looks like having a weekday evening event this year is going to be the way to go.

I do agree with the principle that it's not fair to inconvenience the same people every year, although I don't think it follows that we have to do 50-50 alternating between inconveniencing 10% of the league and inconveniencing 50% of the league (I am assuming that some people don't care about weekends vs. weekday nights).

Assuming that we will do an event this year on one or more weeknights, which one do people prefer? The IOD or the C/FA auction?

Date: Thu Dec 1 15:30 2005

why couldnt u do the iod draft by rolling e mail...u could start it feb 1 .... do 10 picks a day with set up times..it works in my other strat leagues..as for c/fa draft ..do it over 3 weekday nights like u said.....art

Date: Thu Dec 1 16:29 2005

I think doing the drafts in person is part of the fun, not only the c draft, but the iod also. I don't see why the drafts can't be split up into 3 days (c draft, fa draft, and the iod). I am available to do the drafts at any time.

Date: Fri Dec 2 00:11 2005

Saturdays are rough on me but any Sunday is fine. The idea of weeknights is okay for me, but I, too, would prefer later. If it is after 9:00 central, pretty much any weeknight is okay. Another potential solution, perhaps, is to hold it later on Saturday? I would be done by then and perhaps some of the others who work would be as well. Perhaps starting in the late afternoon?

One thing that helps me out is too set the date/time as early as possible because my schedule (I set it) can be somewhat manipulated with enough advance notice (I start planning my schedule for February/March/April in September. I do appreciate everyone's willlingness to compromise, by the way, it is greatly appreciated.

Date: Fri Dec 2 11:58 2005

I can also adjust my shift to a late start on sat/sun. I could make anything starting after 4 pm est. Starting at noon est kills me on either day. Day shifts run from 7-3 and eve shifts are 2-10. The problem I see is that the C/FA is too long to begin that late and I suspect that many gms would be reluctant to spend a Sat night doing the auction because of family considerations.

Date: Fri Dec 2 12:03 2005

Gentlemen,

JR's mother passed away a short time ago, and he has been greatly involved in taking care of his father and other matters, so he hasn't chimed in here yet. I have spoken to him and he says he can't make late weeknights. I think his work schedule is still such that he gets some Fridays off, so maybe earlier in the evening M-W or later in the evening on Th? That being said, I would make the following observations:

1) Has anyone an objection to Friday 8 pm ET, 7 pm CT, 6 pm MT for 3 hours? If not, then we just make it as many weeks as we need. However, while Warren hasn't mentioned anything here, I wonder if he can make Friday evenings.

2) We don't know everyone's reasons for early bedtimes or occupied evenings. We don't know, for example, Dave's schedule, whether he has to be in the operating room by 4 a.m. or whether it's time to make the doughnuts or operate heavy machinery at 2 or he has to administer medicine to someone on a regular schedule. I do know JR has to get up before 5 a.m. every day to get to work on time. I often need the evenings to prepare papers for court and sometimes don't have any warning about needing to have documents ready for the next day.

3) Unless we have an agreement on Friday evening, extending drafts and auctions to short sessions on several days in the evening may exacerbate time zone problems. What is too early for those in AZ or MT is already too late for some in PA. BTW, where does Aaron live?

4) We do know everyone can make it on Sunday. The only hardship on any of us (other than the ones we all share about neglecting family and sports on TV) is Keith needing to use a vacation day and lose pay. But he indicates he can attend. Other days and nights will not have unanimous attendance.

5) We have at least one person who can't make it all on Saturday, and at least one other for whom it makes things "rough." Surely accomodating people who can't attend should take precedence over accomodating the person who can attend but finds it inconvenient.

I don't know why Keith works both Saturdays and Sundays instead of just one or why he can't switch one weekend scheduled 3 months in advance. Maybe he can't do so. Maybe he has other concerns that prevent it. Maybe he just chooses to do it for the extra pay. I don't know. I do know Keith says he can attend Sunday if he wants to.

So, while I am not totally unsympathetic to Keith, I would say that it appears Sunday is the best day for the league, and if we can't find a different day everyone can attend, then we should keep Sunday because everyone can attend on that day and participate. To me, and I suspect to many of you, participating in the league (and most especially the auction and draft) is vacation, and it is a damn good use of vacation time whether you have to declare it as such to your employer or not. We all have only so much time to divide between work, family, and other types of fun. The day of baseball leaguing for me has to be offset by days helping other people who watch my son during the draft and auction. I suspect the rest of you also have to make deals with family and friends to have your day in front of the computer.

Keith hasn't explained whether he is limited to X days of vacation or whether he is limited to X days of PAID vacation, and whether he contends he loses one day of fun or he has to lose one day of pay in addition to the $125 lost for not working on Sunday. So, is this a complaint that he doesn't get the $125 for working Sunday or he gets one less day to take on vacation somewhere or he doesn't get paid for taking an extra day off each year?

I note Keith manages annual treks to Vegas, so he apparently doesn't want for vacations or money to blow on frivolities, even given our Sunday drafts. I'm not faulting Keith for his choice of entertainment; I'm simply saying if he would rather have an extra day in Vegas and an extra hand in blackjack or roll at the crap table, that's up to him. For the rest of us, other days either leave us with no choice but to not attend or leave us with choices that involve something a little more than our selection of which type of entertainment to invest time and money in. I'm sorry if Keith is the only one affected by this, and if we can't work something out on Fridays, and if someone thinks we should offer compensation for lost pay, then may they make a suggestion, but it looks like he gets $500 for staying home and playing baseball GM instead of $625 for going to work that day. We should all be so put upon. Isn't the whole idea of paying someone extra to work weekends to compensate them for losing out on the fun things people do on weekends? Like extended club meetings? And for the life of me, I can't believe that somewhere during the year he can't fill in for someone to make up a lost day of work, if he would rather have 365 paid days a year than an extra day of unpaid vacation.

Finally, is anybody working Jan. 1? That's a Sunday this year. What about SuperBowl Sunday? Are those days available? Will either day cause too much family dissension or other problems? Is anybody working? If not, can't we all make it?

So, questions to be answered:

1) Everyone free on Friday evenings? If so, I'm all for that to help Keith.
2) Anyone have problems with the morning/early afternoon of the Super Bowl or Jan. 1? If not, I'm all for those days to help Keith.

I understand moving Saturdays so Art can attend. I know how hard it must be for him to not be able to see those Met prospects get picked right before it's his turn. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but I just can't agree to inconveniencing everyone and some to the point of exclusion so one person can take advantage of additional compensation for weekend duty.

Date: Fri Dec 2 14:24 2005

I guess my word isn't good enough.

i'll explain it to everyone. I'm an air traffic controller for the Wash DC airports and my work schedule is as follows sat through wed with thur and fri off. My occupation doesn't allow for switching days off and I don't have the option of working sat/sun off. To attend the draft and auction each yr causes me to burn 2 days of vacation for the sat and sun of the draft and auction. as a fed employee, like art, i accrue 25 days of vacation each yr. it would be like scheduling the draft/auction on mon/tue for each of you every yr and you would have to take off work to attend. Art chooses not to use his vacation days to attend and there is no guarantee that I can get those days off from work until the schedule is posted a month in advance. I usually have to call in favors from coworkers to cover the shifts to attend. Conservatively, i have used two weeks plus of vacation over the years to attend drafts and auctions. I have also forgone over a thousand dollars in lost pay. These are choices that I make, but I don't think it is too much to ask that as a gm in good standing for over 13 yrs that the league try to accomodate me a little without having to go into every detail as to why. What and where I choose to spend my money on is really not anyone's business.

How many of you would give up your vacation and cash to attend? some don't even want to lose a little sleep. i'm not asking for much, i only asked if there was a time that didn't so adversely impact me that would also accomodate everyone else. if in the end there is not, then I will do what is necessary to participate. as per my earlier post, i can do sat/sun if we start late enough in the day.

the draft and auction are two of my favorite days of the yr and I will do what it takes to attend. I'm just asking for a little help.

Date: Fri Dec 2 14:42 2005

woa!!! first i have NEVER complained about the drafts being saturday and sunday....i understand u cant please everyone and went with it. i liked keiths idea that

draft be held on weeknights..hell it would be nice being a iod draft....hell DON i feel bad and much appreciated u had to cover for the last 2 iod drafts...as for the decision on times...i will go with what league says..art

p.s...don all the trades manhatten made for prospects..not ONE is a MET

Date: Fri Dec 2 15:29 2005

Just to clarify...I never said I wouldn't lose a little sleep. I thought we were all discussing the hours that would be convenient for a draft/auction on a week night.

For the record, I'm up at 4:00am every day for a long commute and at work by 6:30am. Besides liking to be alert in heavy traffic, I have two cell phones and a land line that rarely stop ringing. In between the phone calls I'm trying run a construction site at Newark Airport and dealing with more pain in the ass Port Authority Engineers/Inspectors than any human being should be subjected to. I prefer to be alert and on top of my game...surely you can understand that Keith. One bad call can lose my company quite a bit of money. I get two weeks of vacation a year...not five.

I don't give a crap when we have the draft/auction. If I can make it, I'll make it. If not, no big deal. There's no crying in baseball!

Date: Fri Dec 2 18:13 2005

For what it's worth, I'll be in Pacific time by draft time, so that'll make weekday evenings that much more problematic.

Keith's objection is entirely valid in my eyes, and I think we should do everything we can do accommodate him and others whose jobs require them to work weekends. I would prefer that a weekday night session not begin before 5:30 pm Pacific / 8:30 pm Eastern, but I recognize that that's unrealistic for the East Coast and so if I have to give up something to attend, so be it. I'm fine with weekend nights and don't think it's unreasonable for people to give them up if it's the only way to get 100% attendance.

The personal attacks on Keith for not wanting to take vacation days are totally inappropriate. The terms of his employment require him to work the weekend. The fact that he gets some extra money for doing that isn't very important, because he doesn't really have a choice one way or the other. The idea of taking vacation time to participate in the draft is silly to me - I doubt I would ever do it, and I'd never make fun of anybody who might rather spend their vacation drinking with Princeton cheerleaders at Coyote Ugly instead of cooped up in their bedroom staring at the computer all day.

We should make it work for the weekend warriors this year.

Date: Sat Dec 3 00:54 2005

Friday nights are problematic for me. In late february, early March, my basketball team (I'm a coach) will be in the playoffs. Friday nights are playoff/scouting nights and would be almost impossible for me to attend at any time during that period of the year. The same goes for Tuesdays. However, there are no guarantees but we are a prohibitive favorite to win the district so we will be in the playoffs. I can try to play on Saturdays but I have to get the other school to agree and that is not always possible. Even if we make an early exit from the playoffs, I am the Head Softball coach and cross-schedule softball and basketball playoffs at this time of the year and have my assistant take the team until basketball is over. Bottom line is I'm extremely busy at that point but that is why Sundays are always free and why weeknights are usually good but Fridays rarely are. The more notice I have of the schedule, the more it is in my power to manipulate things. Like everyone else, the drafts are the most enjoyable part for me. Whatever y'all decide I will do my best to be there, and so far have been able to do so due to rained out tournaments, Sunday IODs, and my point guards' inability to hit clutch free-throws.

Date: Sun Dec 4 00:50 2005

Gentlemen,

At times herein I refer to the "commissioner" and at times "the league." I take it that this is a commissioner decision, but he is subject to wanting to implement the will of the league.

If we can all make another time to help out Keith, then great, let’s do so. Friday seems out, weeknights are difficult, but maybe not impossible, let’s hear the objections to Super Bowl morning and New’s Year’s Day which haven’t been written here yet, so what about Saturday evenings or late Sunday afternoons/early Sunday evening?

Now, I didn’t question Keith's word; I just asked for some more information. I appreciate his explanations. I did not invade his private business--he has always advertised his annual Vegas excursions to the league. I may have been a little sarcastic, but it is not a personal attack on Keith to refer to his annual Vegas trip as evidence that he doesn’t want for vacation time. Finally, I do sympathize with him being the only person burdened by a Sunday auction/draft and if we can find another time everyone can make, then I agree we should do it if it doesn’t place bigger burdens elsewhere.

I asked for specific description of the hardship, and I compared the nature of the burden on Keith to the risk someone couldn't attend at all at a different time. I don't think either was unfair. To me it is more important for the league to avoid a situation in which someone can't attend than a situation in which someone won't attend or finds it inconvenient.

I don't think it unfair for Keith to ask for a change. I don't think it unfair if the league says "Yes." But I don't think it unfair if the league says "No." Particularly when one considers Keith gets 25 days a year annual leave. That is “annual leave,” not “vacation.” Federal employees are granted such large amounts of annual leave, because they "may use annual leave for vacations, rest and relaxation, and personal business or emergencies."

http://www.opm.gov/oca/leave/HTML/ANNUAL.asp

Federal employees aren't just given vacation time; they also get a bunch of time for personal business, rest and relaxation. Keith's employment contract assumes he will take a day off to do exactly this kind of thing and allows him to do so without penalty. That's why he gets annual leave far in excess of typical private employment vacation periods. Is it also a personal attack to point this out? Again, I will credit Keith for having to dedicate something a little more than we do, but this is still just one of the many extra days his employment contract gives him to **** around and do whatever the hell he wants.

Furthermore, his complaint about missing holiday pay for not working a holiday is almost funny. None of us ever get paid holiday pay for not working the holiday. None of us ever get paid overtime pay for not working overtime.

That said, if we can accommodate Keith, let’s do, by all means. If we can’t, then we can’t. I can make it to the draft/auction whenever it’s scheduled, but my sympathies will lie with anyone who has a better reason why he can’t make any given day.

Now, as I thought, Warren is occupied with HS coaching on Fridays. That should end the discussion with respect to Friday. Doug works until 9 pm M-Th CT. We don't know if he can get off work or reschedule hours. Dave indicates he is willing to sit up late. I suspect JR will do the same. If Doug can get away earlier and Dave and JR can stay up later, great. Dan, what time are you available weekday evenings in February/March? Does anyone else have problems with weeknights? To get everyone else's input, I'm going to email to everyone that this discussion is taking place.

That still leaves Super Bowl Sunday, though I have heard an objection stated to me privately --something about interfering with Vegas fun. OK, but don't tell me the league can't consider that rejection when it decides whether it should move from a different Sunday to weekday nights. I suspect the league as a whole will reject Super Bowl Sunday and New Year's Day, but I’m up for those days if it can work for everyone else.

Now, what about Saturday evenings or late Sunday afternoon? Again, I could do whenever.

Whatever you guys decide, I can make it, but forgive me if I think the commissioner should more heavily weigh objections based on inability to attend than ones based on a preference against counting presence at the draft against a wonderfully generous leave allowance that is designed to include exactly this sort of thing.

Date: Sun Dec 4 01:52 2005

doesn't matter to me.

if i can attend i can attend, if i can't i can't. having it on a weekday is fine is that's what the league desires.

Date: Sun Dec 4 09:36 2005

I don't have any strong preferences at this point about when the auction and the draft take place. I missed the draft last year because we were moving, but that was just a bad coincidence. I am on Mountain time in Phoenix, but may not be here for much longer...we shall see. Hopefully I'll be able to attend everything this year.

Date: Sun Dec 4 13:34 2005

I do not care what day or time we have the meetings OTHER than Super Bowl day. I know me and Gary will be in the air that sunday morning on our way to Las Vegas to attend our annual Super Bowl party.

Date: Sun Dec 4 19:33 2005

The best days for me are fri., sat., and sun. On friday I can do it at any time. Like my dad I can not do it the week after the Super Bowl b/c I will be on the plane to Las Vegas.